Gay marriage in California

Are we really surprised?  I read online where someone called it a “Day of Shame” when the California Courts ruled a law unconstitutional that defined marriage as between a man and a woman.  I’m not sure California has any shame left. 

Remember the case a few years ago (I’m thinking ’02, maybe ’03) regarding the phrase “under God” in the Pledge?  The father in that case, offended his daughter had to say that in school, had first gone to court in Florida.  After losing there, he decided he had the best chances in California.  This guy moved his family across the country so he could be offended by the pledge in California, and sue there.  And he was right; a judge there sided with him, on the basis of First Ammendment rights, and separation of church and state.    The whole country knows California is way left, and I don’t mean geographically.

San Fransico has been a Mecca of gay and lesbians since the 1960’s.  “If you’re going to California, be sure to wear some flowers in your hair… You’re gonna’ meet some gentle people there.”  There is no single day in California more shameful than any other day. 

I’ve been hapily married for the past ten years.  My wife and I are unusual in the fact that we both grew up in happy, unbroken homes.  I believe in holy matrimony, as described by God in the Bible.  We live in a free country; if you want to have homosexual intercourse, you’re well within your rights to do so.  But don’t call it marriage.  That cheapens and degrades the marrital relationship I have with my wife.  Marriage is the first institution created by God.  Do what you wish with your gay lovers, but leave “marriage” to those of us who understand and appreciate it. 

24 thoughts on “Gay marriage in California

  1. wow, i ashamed of all those heterosexual couples who cant stay married. It cheapens and degrades marriage, but i dont see you protesting that. I can “understand and appreciate” marriage just as much and if not more than you do.

    How does that cheapen and degrade your marriage?

    Your view points and all those ended marriages cheapen and degrade my life, so by your logic those should be banned too.

  2. Check this out. I bet this will be a totally different spin on the subject for you. I was actually a practicing homosexual for 13 years. I was totally delivered from it! I just want to say that I agree with you completely. Let me also say that I am not even opposed to a gay couple being able to have the same tax breaks that a married couple do. If that is what they choose….then so be it. BUT…marriage is in fact HOLY MATRIMONY. Homosexuality is NOT HOLY. Marriage is recognized by the God of Heaven as a covenant. 2 gay men being together is NOT and WILL NOT EVER be considered HOLY to God. It is SIN. And I do not condone sin in any way. I am so thankful that God delivered me from that lifestyle. It was a totally miserable and tragically depressing way of life. Any homosexual who is truly honest will admit the same thing. I used to spend lots of money on drugs and alcohol just trying to ease the pain because deep down inside I knew it was wrong. And the rejection and demonic activity in my life was nearly unbearable! I wanted to die! Thankfully, I found the grace and mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ. He totally delivered me and filled me with his Holy Spirit. I went through a LOT of deliverance and today I live a totally normal healthy life with no drug abuse, or perversion of any kind. I am truly happy for the first time in my life. I found the love that I was desperately searching for, but another man was not able to give me. Jesus filled that void and showed me what real love truly is. It is impossible to meet a legitimate need in an illegitimate way. Sin will never satisfy, that is why people just get deeper and deeper into perversion. They are constantly looking for the next high or sexual encounter to satisfy…but eventually they have to get into darker and darker stuff to get satisfaction. And eventually they will not be satisfied at all. That is where I got and praise God when I called, He answered. He came and rescued me and gave me a whole new life. It is awesome!

  3. So, how has your marriage suffered since 2003 when the Canadian government made same-sex marriage legal? What has happened since May of 2004 when Massachussetts made gay marriages legal? have you been fighting with your wife more often? Have you been denied tax benefits because your marriage is on shaky grounds? have you been questioned at the emergency room about the validity of your heterosexual marriage? Just how has same sex marriage cheapened and degraded your own marriage? what about the thousands of same sex couples who have joined together in religious ceremonies to commit to each other in SACRED matrimony? They’re doing so with their pastor’s and church’s blessings, not the civil government. Have they caused you and your wife to drift apart?

    It’s also interesting that when you describe your marriage, it is just that, a marriage, yet you reduce the relationships of committed loving, even Christian gays and Lesbians to that of one particular sexual act. If anything is cheap and degrading, it is that statement.

  4. I knew when I posted the original article I was asking for it, but this is good. We’re talking, people are reading.

    Digital Nomad, wow. I never anticipated anything like your story. I’m tempted to copy your testimony into a new post. Would that be all right?

    Keltic, you did exactly what I asked you not to. Same sex couples are not united in SACRED matrimony. God instituted marriage (between a man and a woman) and that’s what makes it sacred. If you want government and legal rights, fine, I don’t mind you having them. But don’t refer to the unholy union of homosexuality as sacred, holy, nor matrimony.

  5. But Clark, you can’t have it both ways. You want the GOVERNMENT to define marriage by your RELIGIOUS standards, yet you won’t “allow” me to refer to my commitment to my partner as a SACRED union. So I have to surmise that you aren’t really interested in discussing either Marriage as a civil contract, or the Union of 2 people as a sacred commitment, which then leads me to believe that you are just using the Bible, as well as your dogma, to support your prejudices.

    If you want to keep marriage sacred, by all means, do that! But don’t expect the government to apply your standards to ALL people.

  6. Someone suggested the government quit recognizing marriage altogether. If you want to get married, go to a church. If you want to a government recognized civil union, go to the courthouse and get a union. I told him that might not be a bad idea. Marriage is a religious institution, as well as a legal one. They could be separated. I want marriage to be defined in such a way that it remains holy and sacred. What you do is not.

  7. Why is it that what you have is a relationship, and what I have is an activity? you continue to define all heterosexual unions as holy, sacred, etc. yet you paint all homosexual relationships as an activity. We are NOT defined by what we do. You reduce us to an activity, and dehumanize us when you do that. Where is the love in that kind of treatment?

    You posted your opinion that California should not be permitting same sex marriages, based on your religious beliefs. Now you’re trying to say that Gays and Lesbians should not be allowed to marry under the auspices of the Government. Churches have always retained the right to turn away couples they deem unfit for marriage. I’ve worked for churches for 25 years, I know that couples have been turned away by pastors. NO ONE is telling churches that they have to marry anyone.

    Again, I have to ask you, how has the fact that gays and lesbians are legally married in Canada and Massachussetts caused any damage to YOUR marriage?

  8. I will say one comment more, and then be finished:

    Gay and lesbian couples do have a relationship. I didn’t mean to indicate otherwise. I do no have the intention (nor the right) to dehumanize. We are all created in God’s image. I have no doubt it hurts Him when we hurt each other. It is my intention to indicate the the homosexual activity is unholy, unsacred, and a blaphemy against the act of sex that was created by God for a man and a woman to engage in. Read Romans Chp. 1. And your right about divorce and adulterous relationships. Those actions are a sin against God’s creation also.

    I would be fine with same gender couples receiveing a legal union so that the government, insurance company, Emergancy Room, etc. would recognize the relationship. A gay or lesbian couple does not harm MY marriage. Calling a homosexual union “marriage” damages the insitution of marriage, which is a religious institution ordained by God to be between a man and a woman.

    And finally, Keltic, you’re making your case and argument on the blog site of a conservative, evangelical Christian. I voted for Bush twice. Your note winning any poinst by arguing with me here. This blog is devoted to proclaiming the truth of scripture, and that’s by in large who my readers are.

  9. Why do evangelical ministers think they get to determine when a conversation is over? You posted this for the public to see, you should expect that you might get some reactions. Well, you have.

    Your rhetoric here is indeed dehumanizing to gay and lesbian people. Such speech gives tacit permission for others to treat gay and lesbian people in less than loving, even hateful ways.

    What you refer to as marriage, in the biblical sense, is not marriage as we know it today. As you may recall from Bible school, marriage meant that a woman was bought and sold, and most likely would be one of many wives, and perhaps even concubines. Women, in biblical times, were property.

    Yes, I realize I’m making a case on the site of a conservative evangelical, but that is my point, it is you who posted that my love, my relationship, should have no honor, either civically or religiously. Why wouldn’t I confront that? I don’t care who you voted for, that has nothing to do with how your treat your fellow human beings.

    Romans 1? I suggest you continue reading into Chapter 2….Paul set the Romans up for what was to come next. It isn’t homosexuality he was concerned with in ch. 1, it was idolatry and judgment and condemnation. And keep in mind, the division of chapters and verses were not applied to scripture until the year 1205.

    now, can you tell me which of the 10 commandments I break when I have a relationship with my beloved? Or perhaps you can tell me what Jesus has to say about same sex relationships? and as I recall from my Bible training, there is only 1 blasphemous action, and that is attributing the work of God, to the work of Satan.

  10. 1) The reason I can determine when the conversation is over is, like I mentioned, it’s my site. I determine everything here, including who, if anyone, gets to comment. This conversation is no longer productive in a way that I believe can help people. But I think it’s just you and me anyway, so let’s continue.

    2) Romans 2 is about judgment, God’s righteous judgment to be precise. Paul is most certainly concerned about homosexuality in Romans 1 when he write these words, verses 26 -28: “For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. for their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.”

    Those are the words of Paul the apostle, regardless of what chapter and verse numbers were later added. What’s that got to do with it? I was telling you were to look.

    3) The 10 commandments is a part of the Old Testament law. The entire Law, however, runs on for chapter after chapter in the books of Moses. If you read the book of Leviticus, it lists basically every sexual sin that can be committed. The Hebrews were being given the promised land because the inhabitants had committed many sins. The Hebrews were warned that is they committed those same sins, they would be wiped from the land also (which they did by the way, and God led them into Babylonian captivity). Leviticus spells out the sins of homosexuality, adultery, having sex with one who is betrothed, having sex with animals, seducing animals into having sex with people, and so on. It is not listed in the 10 commandments, but appears in the other 370 or so that follow.

    4) Jesus speaks about marriage in Matthew chapter 19: “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.’? So they are no longer two, but one.”

    The Old Testament Law says homosexuality is wrong, Paul in the New Testament says it’s wrong, Jesus defines marriage as between one man and one woman. I’ve responded truthfully from the Bible to each of your criticisms in the order you gave them. And yet still you will respond again that the Bible doesn’t condemn homosexuality.

    The God of the Bible also explains to us that despite our sinful and wicked state, he loves us beyond measure. Enough that he sent his Son to take our punishment for us. He that did not know sin became sin for us. You are a person created in God’s image. I speak strongly against the sinful acts of homosexuality, but daily tried to be Christlike in my desire to share the good news (gospel) with a lost and dying world. I want us to be together in heaven, where there will incidentally be no male or female, nor will their be marriage. Those attributes are temporary, and are of this world only. We will be as the angels are. For me to treat you as anything less than a human being created in God’s image would be sinful of me. Go back up and read the testimony of Digital Nomad 777. Perhaps he can offer what it is you need.

  11. Point #1 arrogance, plain and simple

    point #2 Romans 1 and 2 go together to show that the people doing the judging are the ones in trouble. To quote that particular verse to me when you do not know my heart and witness for God, is just you passing judgment on me.

    Point #3 When you start killing sassy children, stop eating shellfish, stop wearing fabrics made of 2 fibers, and start protesting banks that charge interest, in addition to all the other laws from leviticus, then you can use them to judge me.

    Point# 4 talks about marriage, but not about homosexuality. Again, you read into the text rather than reading from the text.

    ex-gay therapy? please, we know it’s not successful, and all the professional organizations have declared it to be dangerous to human life.

  12. As a committed Christian I can see both sides of this dilemma. I worship with gay couples who will never marry in my community, yet they keep coming and we keep accepting them – not necessarily all aspects of their lives.

    I do understand and am more aligned with Clark’s understanding of Scripture on this point. But my question to Clark is how literally do we have to follow Paul’s and the OT’s understanding of proper behavior in the modern Christian Community? I am specifically wondering about the role of women. More than once, Paul is very explicit that women should not teach in Church, and in fact, he ties in his view of women to Adam and Eve and creation. Judaism is one of the few religions without priestesses; this is one of its distinctives. So, I don’t think forbidding women preachers is just some cultural bias for him. In his mind God did not create women to preach in Church.

    Therefore, if a Christian community can allow women preachers (a recent innovation and re-interpretation of Scripture), why aren’t homosexual relationships on the table as well?

    Can you help me with this dilemma?

  13. In response to Keltic, all I’m doing now is responding to stuff you say. My point number one was the answer to your question “why do evangelical ministers get to decide when a conversation is over.” I’m not being arrogant; on this website, that’s why I think that.

    In this present age, we do not live under Old Testament Law. I know that. You asked which of the 10 Commandments you were breaking. The 10 Commandments were given in Exodus chp. 20, which is the beginning of the Law being given in the Old Testament. Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, completely. You asked a question, I answered your question. We now live under grace, not under the Law. If you knew that, why’d you ask?

    Romans 1 and 2 proclaim that God will judge sin and unrighteousness. Your assessment of those 2 chapters is wrong. To correctly understand the meaning of Romans 1 would mean accepting that homosexuality is sin, and you’re unwilling to do that.

    And finally, point 4 is Jesus talking about marriage. When Jesus says “a man shall leave his father and his mother and cleave unto his wife” that’s Jesus quoting the Old Testament about marriage and the family. SHOW ME A VERSE ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE THAT DESCRIBES HOMOSEXUALITY IN A POSITIVE LIGHT. Where is it allowed; what verse says it’s acceptable? Sodom and Gomorah were wiped off the face of the earth for their sexual sins, including homosexuality. Lot offered the men of the city his virgin daughters, but they wanted his angelic visitors (who visited Lot in the form of men). Cannan was given to the Hebrews by God and the inhabitants destroyed because of the sins I mentioned yesterday. Jesus says marriage is between a man and a woman, after that man leaves his father and mother; did you catch that nuclear family imagery? Paul rails against it hard in Romans 1, you just can’t see it. Where does the Bible endorse, permit or allow homosexuality to take place? I will not post any other comment you make that is not an answer to this question.

  14. In response to Joe: the particular Christian community I’m in doesn’t have women preachers, but it is commonly becoming more accepted. There’s a woman preacher listed in my blogroll; she has a good site up. Paul would have been influenced somewhat by the culture he was in. What he actually says is that he would not allow a woman to exert authority over a man in church. Paul is writing to early church leaders, not to the public at large. He was giving Christians instructions on how the church should be organized and operated. His instructions on who to run a church are not as strong theologically as those things that are unrighteous and God will judge. Having a woman preach, for instance, is never described in the Bible as bringing God’s judgment down. If you read Paul carefully, he seems early on to indicate there is no point in getting married because Jesus will so soon be returning. Later in his ministry, he seems a little more flexible on this subject, as it becomes apparent Jesus is not coming back as quickly as he thought. The point is, Paul changes over time. If you’ve ever read Corinthians, we believe that entire church congregation was women. There were no men there. Obviously they had female leadership.

    The Bible is very clear in the Old Testament, New Testament, as well as the teachings of Jesus, that homosexuality is sin. It’s no worse than any other sexual sin, but sexual sin in general is high on God’s list of priorities of things sinful. It is not “on the table” I assure you. Can a woman preach? That’s on the table.

  15. Clark, I agree with one point: Paul changes over time and so does the Church. For example, most Christians feel that the eating of blood sausage is no longer prohibited by the Apostle’s council in Jerusalem’s teaching on the food and circumcision (Acts 15).

    I have read Paul’s letters, and would be very curious to find out what is your basis for believing that the Corinthian Church had no men in it. Is this a commonly held view? Indeed, Paul excommunicates a man in the congregation in his first letter, and teaches about men’ behavior. It is completely not “obvious” that they had female leadership.

    As for the role of women, in 1 cor 14 he says they should be silent and that it is “shameful” for them to speak in church. In 1Tim he writes:

    [1 Tim 2:8] I desire, then, that in every place the men should pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or argument;
    [1 Tim 2:9] also that the women should dress themselves modestly and decently in suitable clothing, not with their hair braided, or with gold, pearls, or expensive clothes,
    [1 Tim 2:10] but with good works, as is proper for women who profess reverence for God.
    [1 Tim 2:11] Let a woman learn in silence with full submission.
    [1 Tim 2:12] I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent.
    [1 Tim 2:13] For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
    [1 Tim 2:14] and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
    [1 Tim 2:15] Yet she will be saved through childbearing, provided they continue in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.

    This is pretty strong stuff. I am not saying that this is the way it should be, but I think that Paul clearly is describing women’s roles in Church in relation to creation and therefore not changeable. It is a relatively recent innovation in scriptural interpretation to have women commonly accepted in the preaching/pastor ministry.

  16. Joe: It is not obvious, but there are clues that lead us (I should say of course some of us) to think that the Corinthian church was primarily composed of women. First, even though Paul keeps referring to “brothers,” the Greek word was adolphoi, which is not gender specific. The translators centuries later made it brothers, but in the original language could be brothers, or sisters, or could even mean “brothers and sisters.” That wording in English provides no evidence to use either way.

    Read 1 Corinthians chp. 7 very carefully. Paul is responding to specific questions that have been asked. The language appears that he is addressing women in the church whose husbands are not believers. His advice is that if a woman is a widow or single that she should stay single (this is early in his ministry; he softens on marriage later in life). If she is already married to an unbeliever, she should stay married and possibly lead her husband to Christ. Read chp. 7 with the thought in mind of answering these questions for women of the church, and it seems that Paul is doing just that.

    We can’t be sure, I’m suggesting it’s a possibility. Chp. 11 deals a lot with head coverings. For certain the whole entire situation is a mess; the church is more like Greek culture than the rest of the Greeks! See if the whole tone you get from 1 Cor. doesn’t sound like a bunch of feuding women. (I won’t get away with that.) There is none of the instruction in Cor. that you find in Timothy about being a good leader, nor how to select and ordain leaders. They must have been under some type of common leadership structure. The truth is I don’t KNOW that the Corinthian church was made up of women, but it seems that way at times. Another thing I don’t know is why any church today would take the name Corinth for their church; that was one of the most messed up places Paul ever had anything to do with.

  17. I would just like to say that I did not participate in any kind of ex-gay therapy. All I did was enter into a committed relationship with Jesus Christ. He did all of the changing…and when those demonic strongholds were broken…well let’s just say that THE TRUTH SET ME FREE.

    Jesus also says in Revelation 22

    14″Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

    Homosexuality is clearly an immoral sin, just as all sexual sin is. I would much rather know that I am right than suffer the fires of Hell for eternity. I don’t think it is worth it.

    The thing about marriage is…the WHOLE POINT of marriage is for the two to become one flesh (and we ARE talking about a man and a woman here) what does that mean? It means that in GOD’S EYES that man and that woman are joined together in a HOLY UNION. THEN AND ONLY THEN are they allowed to have sexual intercourse….without it being sin. REGARDLESS of what ritual you perform, or covenant you make…2 people of the same sex having sex will never be holy in God’s eyes. Why DO you think he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah?

    Sin is Sin. There is a price to be paid. We are to be HOLY as he is HOLY.

  18. Oh and by the way you are welcome to use my comment any way you like Clark. I also have a longer version of my testimony on my blog…it is in the archives as it was about a year ago or so when I wrote it.

  19. My Testimony:

    Disclaimer: What you are about to read is a true story. I am a 100% down to earth guy, and I only share this story with you because it is who I am. Not only who I am now, but a glimpse into the past…to look for a moment at who I was before. Thank GOD that guy I used to be is now dead. He has been crucified. What a poor, wretched soul he was. This story might have some pretty graphic/adult oriented material. If you are too young to be reading this, then please DON’T. I fully intended this story to be read by ADULTS.
    As I am sure you know by now, my name is A.J. I was born in Huntsville, Alabama on November 7, 1975. My father was Allen G. Nichols Sr., and my mother was Jenell C. Nichols. They divorced when I was 6 months old. Things just didn’t work out. My dad was upper class, a computer scientist for a big technology corporation, and my mother was a dental assistant. Somehow, of course, my father managed to run from his responsibility as a parent, and so my mom was left to raise me. Very typical scenario nowdays.
    I never really felt like I knew my Dad. He was a really bad alcoholic, and remarried 2 times before his death. I always felt like there was something wrong with me, that if I was truly a good son, then why didn’t he want me? Typical feelings of rejection for a guy that grows up without a father.
    So, I lived with my Mom, and my brother John, and my sister Jeannie growing up. Jean and John were older, (from my Mom’s first husband) and I was the “baby”. My Mom was always bar hopping, (an alcoholic as well) and usually ended up bringing home some really rough guys. She married again…to a very abusive and alcoholic man. I remember him beating me with a belt, with the buckle at the loose end of the belt. There were lots of bruises, and my grandmother took polaroid pictures of this, and came to the trailer we lived in threatening to have him put in jail. Him and my mom divorced shortly after. I was about 4 or 5 at the time all of this was happening.
    Then something happened. My Mom started gong to church, and for the most part, gave up her life of bar hopping. She married the man she is married to to this day. He too was a professing Christian, used to be rock n’ roller/drug addict supposedly changed by Jesus. Now, I must first begin this part by saying that He and I get along now. There were a lot of thigs that happened that were both of our faults, and so much has changed. I believe that God has restored our relationship, and consider him to be a good father to me. Anyway…to describe what I saw and learned when I was growing up…the only term I can use is PSYCHO RELIGIOUS. He would beat me, and scream scriptures at me. I was “The Devil’s Child” and was going to “Split Hell Wide Open” This all started (the abuse) when I was about 7 years old. It continued all the way through high school. We even had someone call DHR, and report him for child abuse. They came to my school, and wanted to take me away from my Mom. Of course, at that age, I could not imagine life without my Mom, so I refused to leave. I was truly in Hell…it had already found me. Words cannot express the agony and pain that I lived in for some 12 years. It truly was a nightmare.
    I began using drugs when I was 15. I also began drinking alcohol around that time. Even before that I had started being attracted to other guys sexually, as I was so desperate for male affirmation/affection. I was literally starving to be loved, and somehow was deceived into thinking that pleasing another man sexually would keep him around to give me the love I so desperately wanted. (I forgot to mention that I was also molested by someone when I was very young as well.)((That was probably the open door that led me into the deception)). I also had several experimental sexual encounters with other boys when I was a little boy. My first real sexual encounter with another guy was when I was 13 years old. At the time it seemed like exactly what I wanted. It was very pleasurable at the time. But then, when the time for school came Monday morning, the only thing I could think about was having to face him in front of all of our friends. It was so scary.
    The drug use escalated full frenzy. For 13 years I was heavily abusing crack cocaine, crystal meth, XTC, LSD, Prescription Pills of all colors and varieties, GHB, Ketamine, Marijuana, Alcohol, and anything else I could get my hands on that would ease the pain. I also was in probably 25 or more homosexual relationships. I absolutely HATED Christianity. I believed that I was born Gay, and that I would ALWAYS be that way. People would talk to me about Jesus, and I would laugh in their face. I thought they were crazy!
    Then, in 1999, I finally broke down. I went into rehab on my own choice. I truly wanted help. I was about to die, and I knew it. I had overdosed several times, and was extremely addicted to speed. I just wanted the rollercoaster to stop. The rehab I ended up at was a Christ centered rehab, and I found the love of God there. I began attending the Vineyard Church regularly. There were a lot of prophetic people there that gave me words directly from God. I knew that somehow, I had had a bad example of Christianity modeled before me. These people were NOTHING like my step-dad. They loved me unconditionally. I was clean for about 4 years.
    Somehow, I fell. It started with the smallest things. I started taking pills again. Then I convinced myself that I would be ok to be involved in sexual sin. After all “God Understands” is what I kept telling myself. I got involved in what would end up being my last homosexual relationship. It lasted for 3 years. I was MISERABLE! I was doing cocaine and smoking crack like Bobby and Whitney (no joke lol). It was once again a nightmare. I loved the guy that I was with so much, and it took me that long, because I was still so afraid to trust God and let go. Finally I did. I left everything and moved back to Gadsden. It was my complete surrender.
    Now, to the beautiful part of the story. I found the creator of the universe. No joke. I COMPLETELY SURRENDERED to Jesus. And guess what? He set me free! I was filled with the Holy Spirit (which felt better than ANY DRUG that I have ever done!!!) and I was delivered from somewhere in the ballpark of 50 demons. They screamed as they came out of me. And now, I am COMPLETELY drug/alcohol free, and I have COMPLETELY normal desires sexually. No more lust/masturbation/perversion/homosexuality. I am a FREE MAN! And even better yet…I have a PERSONAL INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP with the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. The Great I AM. Let me tell you…there ARE real people who follow Jesus. HE IS LOVE. HE IS REAL. HE IS ALIVE AND WILL SET YOU FREE FROM WHATEVER YOU NEED TO BE SET FREE FROM. He sees all, knows all, and hears all. There is NOBODY like him. I finally found what I was looking for.

    Thank you for taking the time to read my story. It is sad but true. I am not proud of who I used to be. But I AM proud of Jesus. He gets all of the glory and honor for who I am today. He loves taking broken, messed up people that have nothing to live for, and making them into new creations. I thank him every day for the joy and peace I have in Him. Also, the best part is that He is making me like Him. I am being transformed into His image. He has given me His authority to love people, and help lead them to Him. He is the only way to the Father. He is the ONLY way to Heaven. He is THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE.

    I love him.

    Jeremiah 29:13 & 14 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you,” declares the LORD, “and will bring you back from captivity

    Jeremiah 33:3

    ‘Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know.’

    I Corinthians 6:9-11

    Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

  20. Thank you A.J. Expect to see this as a post with a link to your site in the near future.

  21. Thank you Clark,, you just use that testimony however you see fit. To God be the glory. It is His story after all!

    You know…I find this whole conversation very interesting…I mean when I was a homosexual I could not STAND for anyone to tell me that it was wrong. Why? Because deep down in my heart I KNEW it was true. I KNEW that God did not approve of it, and no matter WHAT I DID to try and escape, that emptiness would not go away. And the sad part is that all of these wonderful people that practice homosexuality cannot see the truth…they think that by getting “married” that it will fill that void somehow…but it will not. The only thing that will fill that void is a completely surrendered relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. He said that we must “take up our cross” and follow him. There is absolutely NOTHING that compares with the love relationship that I have with Jesus Christ! He has not only taken all of those old desires away…but he has made EVERYTHING NEW!

    I have found that the problem is that people just DON’T BELIEVE! If they knew it was true.,..they would run to him in a heartbeat…but it is so much easier to stay in their sin and wallow in filth than to make the effort to follow Jesus. IT WILL COST YOU EVERYTHING. IT IS WELL WORTH THE COST!!!

  22. Sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed because of sexual sins, which is made clear by all the other scriptures that mention that story, including the words of Jesus in Matthew 10:11-15, and again in Matthew 11:20-24. It was their faithlessness. As far as Lot offering his daughters, why would he have offered his daughters to men that he knew were homosexual? That makes no sense at all. The men were there to subdue and dominate the strangers, common practice in the middle east when men wanted to exert their power over an enemy.

    As for positive examples from scripture: Jonathan loved David. Look at Jonathan’s behavior in 1 Samuel 18:1-4. this is not the behavior of someone acquiring a new “best friend.” If Jonathan had given his prized possessions to a woman, if the scripture had said that Jonathan’s soul was bound to a woman, this story would be touted as the greatest “love-at-first-sight” love story ever known. Saul knew what their relationship was because of his vulgar insult at dinner: “You son of a perverse, rebellious woman! Do I not know that you have chosen [David] the son of Jesse to your own shame and to the shame of your mother’s nakedness? For as long as the son of Jesse lives upon the earth, neither you nor your kingdom shall be established.” (1 Samuel 20:30) What would be the purpose of such anger if Saul were not concerned about his line continuing as kings? And finally, at Jonathan’s death David said the following: “Saul and Jonathan, beloved and lovely!
    In life and in death they were not divided;
    they were swifter than eagles,
    they were stronger than lions.
    How the mighty have fallen in the midst of battle!
    Jonathan lies slain upon your high places.
    I am distressed for you my brother Jonathan;
    Greatly beloved were you to me;
    your love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.”
    (2 Samuel 1:23, 26-27)

    Ruth and Naomi: Ruth “clung” or “dabaq” to Naomi in ruth 1:14, in the same way that Genesis 2:24 describes that a man should leave his father and mother and “cling” or “dabaq” to his wife.

    Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:1-10. the word for ‘servant’ is “pais” which could mean “son or boy” “servant” or even a particular type of servant known as a “master’s lover” which was part of the system of pederasty that was common at that time among the Romans, even though today, we understand this to be a practice that is not acceptable (similar to adults taking child brides.)

    And yes, I did catch the male-female imagery that Jesus uses, but that does not mean that Jesus is condemning homosexuality. He’s teaching about marriage and divorce, which has nothing to do with orientation as we understand it today.

    Truthfully, I sense an anger in your replies that is not conducive to discussion. Why is that? Is there some reason that this topic is so important to you that you must rail against it? Is it so hard for you to believe that God could indeed have made some of us to love people of the same gender, that you can’t even engage in a civil discussion about this? Let me be clear about this: I am not asking you to stop promoting marriage as appropriate for couples who are in love and wish to commit to each other for a lifetime. I am asking you to stop applying your religious beliefs to the civil contract of marriage, as well as asking you to reconsider the scriptures that you believe condemn homosexuals. In the end, you are free to maintain your belief that gay and lesbian people are sinners based on their orientation, but keep in mind that theologians are disagreeing with that assessment. Psychological, Medical, & Psychiatric professions also affirm that homosexual orientation is naturally occurring in humans as well as the animal kingdom. It was not so long ago that Christians used the Bible to endorse slavery, prohibit inter-racial marriage, and prevent women from owning property, voting, and taking on leadership roles within the church. You are beginning to find grace in the scripture to allow women to take the lead in your church; Can you also find grace for God’s gay and lesbian children?

  23. I’m not buying the Jonathan and David thing, sorry. I’ll do some research on the Hebrew wording for Ruth and Naomi story, but I would quickly point out that Ruth marries a man, big surprise.

    Homosexuality is condemned by the Bible. Marriage is instituted in the Bible. I will hold fast to both my convictions that homosexuality is sin, and that marriage is to between one man and one woman.

    This conversation is over because it needs to be over. It’s been over a week, and no one is going to read 25 comments responding to a post this old. Keltic and I are both firmly sticking to our original positions, neither one willing to conceed, AND THERE IS NO ONE ELSE in this conversation. It may not be finished, but it’s done.

  24. Clark, I would just like to say one thing if you don’t mind in response to what Keltic said. Those things (David and Jonathan and Ruth and Naomi are very commonly used in defense of homosexuality. The truth still remains. Sin is sin. Jesus himself said in the book of revelation that the sexually immoral would not enter the Kingdom. Homosexuality is a perversion of the truth. In the book of acts, where they simplified the rules for the Gentiles…one of the main ones was NO SEXUAL IMMORALITY. Why? Because sexual sin opens up doors for the demonic. God is not saying that you can’t have sex with the same sex to hinder you from pleasure just to deprive you from pleasure…he is offering you COMPLETE RESTORATION from your sinfulness…which includes all of the lusts of your flesh (which is where the lust for homosexual relations comes from). I am telling you that HE WILL DELIVER YOU FROM IT. This is the beauty of the Gospel! In order to inherit the Kingdom of God, you must REPENT. That means to not only change the way you think, BUT TO TURN AWAY FROM YOUR SIN. If you don’t, then you are choosing your sin over Jesus. Homosexuality is an idol in your life if you are not willing to give it up to come to Jesus. He said you must leave EVERYTHING. You will NOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD AS A PRACTICING HOMOSEXUAL. I DIDN’T SAY IT….GOD DID.

    It is written very clearly in His word. You can try to manipulate it all you want. You can lie to yourself all you want. But deep in your heart you know that it is wrong.

    I say all of this in love. I have found FREEDOM! It is my prayer that you will to. Oh, and real freedom is not being enslaved to a sinful lifestyle. May God open your eyes to see homosexuality the way he sees it. Ask him to show you the truth. That is what I had to do. And when I asked him he did it and made me see it the way that HE SEES IT. It is NOT my opinion that matters, but HIS OPINION.

    with love,


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